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Confederate flag not acceptable

Tim Spires

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Published: Wednesday, November 5, 2008

Updated: Wednesday, November 5, 2008

At the Homecoming Concert on Friday I saw a disgusting scene. Confederate flag-clad rednecks, frat boys and other so inclined people who could be categorized as “white trash.” Being a Southerner, one cannot avoid the Confederate flag. But I never thought an institution of higher learning would condone a venue that distributed them.


The assertion that the confederate flag implies the continuation of slavery is a shallow one. The truly disgusting aspect of societal acceptance of the Confederate flag is the ignorance of its meaning as a symbol. In the United States of America we have the right to hold opinions that are in direct contradiction to the well being of the Union. And so those who would don a symbol of the destruction of our Union have the right to do so.


What is disgusting is that the very same group of people claims to be such staunchly patriotic “Americans.” The Confederate flag is a symbol of a state that inadvertently attempted to destroy our Union, in seeking independence, because of that state’s failure to progress toward national standards and societal norms that were not even to a level that could be considered in agreement with natural law. Furthermore, the modern connotation of the Confederate flag is as a symbol of the oppression of black people as well as rampant bigotry towards non-protestants and “foreigners.”


I embrace my Southern heritage; but what that heritage entails is both horrifically depraved and beautifully filled with culture. Failure to understand that concept is the utmost sin of the above-mentioned group of people. They aren’t known for their above-average intelligence though, so perhaps I should not expect so much of them.


Tim Spires is a sophomore majoring in French, management and information systems and finance.

Comments

20 comments
Oh Please
Fri Nov 7 2008 15:42
.

"And sorry I don't play that way big boy, violence ends in one way and that is somebody in an ER or morgue."

Obviously, you don't play that way. But since you insist on the term "rednecks" as having a positive value — despite the fact you lump them in a group "categorized as white trash" in the very same sentence — I invite you to go ahead and try it the way I suggested. Wait till they're gathered at the frat house and full of beer, then go call them rednecks — and don't forget to add that you positively categorize them as "white trash."

By the way, I don't attend the university, I'm not one of your basic neo-conservative Baptists and you're the liberal who will probably end up costing me money.

And as the writer who produces an article about the Confederate Flag, thinking he's stumbled onto some great knowledge of should-be equality and trumpets it as absolute right without attempting to see into the other side, you're the fool.

And you are still dodging my original question because answering it would prove that you're just another liberal propping up your side over another and not some great prophet of equity.

Tim Spires
Fri Nov 7 2008 11:51
I am not asserting that I used the term redneck as a positive one. I am asserting that in lower/middle-class southern society that term has positive connotations. You are obviously just another one of the countless fools who attend this University, contribute to the degradation of this institutions world image, and cost me money. And sorry I don't play that way big boy, violence ends in one way and that is somebody in an ER or morgue. If any of the social conservatives were really in such accord with their biblical principles and the teachings of Christ they would know that violence is not,nor ever will be, the answer. But I am just another one of those godless college liberals right? So I don't believe in the teachings of Christ? Right? Tell me that?

And really I don't care what Bryant Jr. does politically nor what the Bear did. He was a football coach, and a good one, though I know he is up there with Jesus at the University. Just as I like William's music, I liked Bryant's coaching. And just the same, I agree with little of William's politics.

Oh Please
Fri Nov 7 2008 09:51
.

I see Tim. So, the Confederate Flag is a symbol of divisiveness that represents a group of people who refused to adapt to the standards of the Union, while Latino rallies where thousands of immigrants (legal and illegal) wave the Mexican flag is what.... perfectly OK?

You're just another college liberal, trying to align yourself with some kind of fantasy enlightenment by bringing up your incredibly unoriginal view and dragging it around the yard once more. You're not crossing any new borders here, and I think it would be safe to say you're not changing any minds from atop your ivory pedestal.

Your explanation about "rednecks" being a positive term is complete and utter bulls**t, by the way. You obviously used it in a derogatory manner, and now you act like you've done someone a favor. Go ahead and approach one of those frat boys and call him "white trash" to his face and see how long it takes him to knock your teeth out.

Don't like the Confederate Flag? Then stay away from it. And I promise I won't attend any "disgusting" Latino pride rallies where thousands thumb their noses at the country that takes care of them.

Tim Spires
Thu Nov 6 2008 22:57
No I would not call them "brown trash" because that is obvious racism. Their flag and their actions are immaterial to the issue at hand. But to touch on that, I was not making a claim about the Civil War but about modern Southern society. The point is that the social conservatives mentioned above are committing an act of supreme hypocrisy. The pejorative term white trash originated in the 1820s in Baltimore. Stowe titled an entire chapter of A Key to Uncle Tom's Cabin, Poor White Trash. The term refers to the disparity between the small group of very wealthy plantation owners and the uneducated, lower-class workers. Williams described himself as a redneck to the jubilation of what I would guesstimate to be 9/10 of the crowd. The terms are virtually synonymous and though the origin of the term redneck is debated. So either of those terms would be appropriate. The sole difference between the two, asides from origin, is the negative connotation of one and, what is to some, the positive connotation of the other.

If, as is evident, so many of you believe the actions of the South to be just then I am at a loss. Progression as a nation does not come from violence or abandonment, but from peaceable and open-minded dialogue. The fundamental failure of humanity is failure to jointly arrive at that conclusion now, some three millenniums into civilization's existence.

SylviasDaddy
Thu Nov 6 2008 21:07
Young Mr.Spires calls the Confederate Battle Flag "a symbol of the destruction of our Union."

The Story of Jonathan and Caroline

Jonathan and Caroline had known each other for some time.

Jonathan was always up and doing, and he liked to be in charge of everyone and everything. Caroline, on the other hand, was easygoing. She dispatched her business, but did not run herself ragged, and she believed in living at her own pace and allowing others to do the same.

After some time, Jonathan proposed marriage to Caroline. She expressed her misgivings (“I fear that you will not be satisfied until I become a duplicate of you”), but the marriage took place.

Almost immediately, Jonathan began re-molding Caroline to his image of what she ought to be. Most of his efforts she took in stride, but as his demands grew greater she expressed her misgivings.

The sorest point was the family income. Jonathan expected Caroline to work long hours both inside and outside the home and turn all her income over to him. He then spent the majority of the money on his own interests rather than on hers or on their mutual well-being. Before many years had passed, Caroline was providing 80% of the family income while receiving at best 20% of the benefits of the expenditures.

One day Jonathan announced “Caroline, you are not earning enough to suit me. You have thirty days to increase your income by fifty percent.”

To Caroline, already run ragged, this demand was the last straw. She swiftly packed a few items and fled the house, then sent word to Jonathan: “Your demands have gone too far. When I married you, I expected to be your wife – but you have made me your cash cow, and I am sick and tired of having my teats pulled with nothing to show for it. I want a divorce.”

When Jonathan received that news, his fury knew no bounds. He hunted Caroline down, dragged her back home by the hair of her head, chained her to the bedpost, and beat her savagely (blacking both her eyes, breaking her nose and several bones, and knocking out teeth not a few). He then twisted her arm behind her and frog-marched her into court, where the judge rendered his verdict:
• Caroline had no right to desert Jonathan.
• Divorce was impossible.
• Jonathan had the right to wreak whatever vengeance he wished upon Caroline, now or in the future, because she had had the unmitigated gall to desert him and seek a divorce.

Jonathan bragged to one and all “I saved my marriage! Caroline and I did not get a divorce. We are still very much married.”

Some would say that Caroline was guilty of trying to destroy the marriage. After all, she did desert Jonathan and file for divorce.

Others would say that Jonathan had already destroyed the marriage by mistreating Caroline.

What say you?

Oh Please
Thu Nov 6 2008 17:16
Tim, please respond to my original post (the first of this thread). I'd love to now your opinion on the questions I put forth. Don't skirt me on this one, dude.
Stephen Sullivan
Thu Nov 6 2008 15:53
Bottomline for me is that I love the United States of American, as well as my Confederate ancestors. Because of that, I'll continue to display both flags prominently. History is what it is - no one can ever change it. As an aside, I visited the Flight 93 memorial this past July in Shanksville, PA. At the memorial there is a permanent marker displaying the Confederate battle flag that pays tribute to the fallen heroes on flight 93. At Gettysburg, Sharpsburg, and other Civil War battlefields in the North, you can purchase Confederate battle flags from the gift shops in order to either keep as a souvenir or to place on the grounds of these battlefields to pay your respects to the Confederacy. I placed a Confederate battle flag high atop Little Round Top at Gettysburg where the 15th Alabama put forth the greatest assault of the entire War according to Gen. Longstreet. There is a right way to display the flag and a wrong way.

A little piece of trivia for you. Paul Bryant, Jr. is a current, active member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

Rebecca Walker
Thu Nov 6 2008 13:24
Tim, thanks for writing this piece. Unfortunately, only those of us who view the Confederate flag without rose-colored glasses can see what it stood for, whether intentionally or not.

Communication is not what is intended, rather, it's what is received. And those of us who aren't so quick to defend the poor choices of the Confederacy know exactly what is implied by the presence of the flag in public arenas, whether or not it's the (arguable) original message of it.

I say all this to say, you're probably preaching to the choir. Those of us who can see things for what they are, already agree with you. Everyone else is too caught up in "tradition" to look at what the flag means to those outside of their own, closed circles.

Tim Spires
Thu Nov 6 2008 11:50
I am well aware of the atrocities on both sides. My point was that though there were many terrible things that happened the ones responsible were not the multitude of soldiers as a group, but the commanding officers and government officials and that is true for both sides. There is no defense of Fort Pillow? The only one that can be made is the questioning of different soldiers accounts, if memory serves me.
Stephen Sullivan
Thu Nov 6 2008 10:32
Spires,

You mentioned the prison camp at Andersonville. The prison camps in the North were much more harsh than what transpired at Andersonville. One of my ancestors was held prisoner in the worst prison camp of all in New York, called "Hellmyra" and wrote in his diary about being fed dog. The reason the yankee prisoners were in such bad shape at Andersonville is because of the fact that the South did not have rations available to feed them. In fact, the Confederacy did not have enough food to provide its very own soldiers. The southern boys were very emaciated during the War because of the lack of food. The Union would furthermore not do a prisoner exchange for their troops at Andersonville and this is well documented.

Oh Please
Thu Nov 6 2008 09:26
Tim, why did you address everyone's comment but mine? Did you not see me hiding there at the bottom?

And on your issue of Andersonville, you should visit historic Chicago and see what you can find out about Union POW camps...

Tim Spires
Thu Nov 6 2008 03:15
Good god. You people (I did in fact just write: you people) really do believe this stuff don't you. The true issue here is the hypocrisy of the above mentioned group of social conservatives, not the actual issue of the flag. When I say "you people", I refer to the large group of southerners who think that this part of our heritage is a good thing. And if that elderly gentleman Mr Mclendon wants to give a history lesson, he's barking up the wrong tree. I am aware of the myriad of causes for the War. The issue is that a group of people who claim such staunch patriotism would cling to a symbol which (unavoidably) represents the attempted destruction of the Union. Secession was about selfishness. The states that made up the CSA held primary loyalty either to themselves or to an issue which they thought of far greater importance than preservation of the Union. Generally that is called treason. Normally traitors are shot. That did not happen for the most part, and I am glad of it. But with an understanding of social conservatism I am led to believe that if a group such as the Weather Underground were to attempt to form a peaceful little county of their own and in doing so killed some 620,000 soldiers on both sides and undetermined, but no doubt enormous, numbers of citizens, the social conservatives would call for execution and any symbol associated with that group would be denounced as a symbol of terrorism, etc., etc., etc.

Now I will wait for the wave of controversy because I compared the CSA to a terrorist organization.

Crimson_White,CliftonPalmerMcLendon@yahoo.com
Wed Nov 5 2008 23:35
The usual definition of “ignorance” is “lack of knowledge, either in general or of a particular subject.”

When young Mr. Spires writes “The truly disgusting aspect of societal acceptance of the Confederate flag is the ignorance of its meaning as a symbol,” he shows his lack of knowledge on the subject of Confederate information in general and the Confederate Battle Flag in particular. Since we are taught to share our knowledge rather than hoarding it selfishly (Freely have ye received; freely give), I am glad to share my knowledge with young Mr. Spires.

By way of very brief summary: The War of 1861-1865 was fought for the same principles as the War of 1776-1781: because people believed that they had the right to choose their own government rather than having a government crammed down their throats; that when the government ceased to serve them and began oppressing them, the people had the right to fire the government and make a new one that suited them better.

If young Mr. Spires disapproves of Virginia, the two Carolinas, and Georgia (together with other States) firing Abraham Lincoln and Congress in the 1860s, I wonder if he also disapproves of Virginia, the two Carolinas, and Georgia (together with other States) firing George III and Parliament in the 1770s. I wonder also if he disapproves of the Mexicans firing the King of Spain in the early 1800s, of the Texians firing the President of Mexico in 1836, and various Soviet republics firing the Soviet Union in the 1990s. If he does not, I wonder if he realizes that he holds an inconsistent position, thereby making it convenient for people to think him ridiculous.

Young Mr. Spires also writes “Furthermore, the modern connotation of the Confederate flag is as a symbol of the oppression of black people as well as rampant bigotry towards non-protestants and ‘foreigners.’”
Young Mr. Spires is right in that lots of people do have that negative opinion of the Confederate Battle Flag. Inasmuch as young Mr. Spires is a man of learning rather than a man chosen at random, one would expect young Mr. Spires to go on to say “When one does a bit of research, however, that connotation is called into serious question” or thereby. I have no doubt that young Mr. Spires, as a man of learning, knows that it is entirely possible for people to have unfavorable opinions of favorable things.

Young Mr. Spires uses the word “bigotry,” which word means “obstinate and unreasoning attachment to one’s own belief and opinions with intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.” I wonder if he realizes that some people could easily opine from his article that young Mr. Spires has something of an obstinate attachment to his own beliefs, with less than generous tolerance of opposing beliefs.

Clifton Palmer McLendon, BAAS (CJ)
Upshur County, Texas

Tim Spires
Wed Nov 5 2008 23:31
I will say nothing but in response to Valerie's allegation (below) that I do not have the right to decide the meaning of another's symbol and Stephens comment.

If I, or historians for that matter, do not have the right to proffer a symbol's meaning, then who has the right to decide what any symbol means. From that point of view you cannot assert that the Nazi flag(I do not refer to the Hindu swastika alone) is a symbol of the horrors of the Third Reich, you cannot assert that the sheeted robe and white pointed-top mask is a symbol of the Klan, you cannot assert even that Lady Liberty is a symbol of OUR nation which is the United States of America(since the CSA ceased to exist more than a century ago.

To honor those who died is not dishonorable, and I never said it was otherwise. As a group, they were not responsible for the atrocities at Andersonville, Union survivors of Andersonville who were in the same starved state as the detainees at the German Labor and Concentration camps, with legs skinnier than their knees, clear and fully distinguishable pelvises, and rib cages you could put your finger in without regard to counting them. The fallen of the Confederacy, as a group, are not responsible for the horrors of the Massacre at Fort Pillow, with 369 dead black Union soldiers killed, many while surrendering. So, old, decrepit, senile woman, if I cannot describe the connotation of a symbol such as the Confederate flag, then who the hell can describe the connotation of any symbol. From the flag of the United States to the flag of the Third Reich.

And to Stephen, you obviously did not read beyond the first three sentences. Since I put aside the issue of slavery completely. Had you been involved in further discussion about this issue you would see that I have completely considered the border states as nullifying slavery as constituting the meaning of the flag. Though your obviously nonobjective attempt to mitigate responsibility on the part of the South as to the issue of slavery is understandable, it is immaterial. The issue with the border states is that they held the preservation of the country above their own selfishness. Whereas the South did not do so. There was a myriad of reasons and causes for the Civil War. Many as important as slavery(since it was a, very slowly, dieing institution since the early Nineteenth Century.)

Valerie Protopapas
Wed Nov 5 2008 19:53
You complain of "hate mail" but your comments about those who revere a great symbol of a desperate struggle for freedom against overwhelming federal tyranny are just as "hateful". Thing is, you have a constitutional right to make those comments though they expose your ignorance but, in the same way, those whose anger is misdirected into a personal assault - if one actually occurred - are themselves guaranteed the same rights - at least for now.

Frankly, young man, you are not bestowed with the right to decide what other people's symbols mean. If they mean hate and prejudice to you, then by all means don't display them. But the most superficial investigation of the facts prove that your viewpoint is wrong and mostly likely the result of the politically correct manipulation of easily swayed minds.

There are still some remnants of the Constitution floating around though I do not doubt that given the expressed sentiments of the winner of the last ridiculous crap-shoot, that situation will not last much longer. But while it does, the Confederate flag and every other symbol and memorial of the Confederacy and Southern heritage are protected from censorship under the First Amendment. However, don't despair! Like another morally challenged Illinois politician who gained the same office about 140 years ago, I'm sure that Mr. Obama will solve all your problems by making that nasty old Constitution finally go away permanently.

Stephen Sullivan
Wed Nov 5 2008 17:23
I'm proud to be a native Alabamian. I hold both an undergraduate degree in anthropology, as well as a juris doctor. I'm also a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. I take exception to the tone of the above opinion piece. The Confederate battle flag was never intended to be a symbol of slavery. It represents pride in one's nation (the Confederate States of America). Unfortunately, over time, various hate groups have adopted the flag for all the wrong reasons. I love the United States, but I also appreciate my Confederate ancestors for putting it all on the line and for giving their lives. We lost many a brave and great man from the South during the War, and many great Alabamians such as the Gallant John Pelham from Calhoun County. I will never turn my back on my ancestors. Was slavery wrong? Absolutely. The yankee Massachusetts slave ship owners are largely to blame for the rise of slavery in America. There were five slave states that did not secede from the Union (West Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, Kentucky). The blame goes to the entire country; not just to the South. I will continue to take pride and love in the South, my ancestors who fought for the Confederacy, and my love for the Southern Cross.
Oh Please
Wed Nov 5 2008 13:01
Tim, how do you feel when Latinos rally in California and wave thousands of Mexican flags? Would you say it's the symbol of unnaturalized aliens who may one day inadvertently destroy our union? Would you refer to those people as "brown trash?"
Sholanda Sanford
Wed Nov 5 2008 12:47
I truly enjoyed this particular opinion. But in all honesty the most interesting part of this opinion was left out. It is truly upseting that I had to log in to finish reading this. I would really like to know why I was not able to read the whole peice in the CW paper itself.
Tim Spires
Wed Nov 5 2008 11:34
I can't help but wonder if there are no comments on this because nobody cares to comment or because they can't get through the CW filter for the F-Bomb. Somebody obviously cares enough to send me hate mail.
Raleigh Hill
Wed Nov 5 2008 06:45
Totally agree! Well said!

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